A long overdue posting of Dr. Peter Payne's response to Ozair on this subject
1. A God of love who hates some things
[Quoting you] “[C]hristians also claim that the God of the bible is all loving and just. It must be asked, however, what does this truly mean? Is everything God does, in and of itself, out of his love for his creation? Such a claim would seem absurd, as it presupposes all things which God does, even hate[s], is done out of love. Perhaps the only way out of this is to say that God does not hate anything. In such a case, the discussion exceeds the scope of this paper. Rather, this paper argues that an all loving God is nowhere to be seen in the old testament, but rather, a more wrathful and violent God is evident when compared to new testament standards.”
Christians often speak of God as being “all-loving,” and some say that everything that God does flows out of love. However, Jesus warned of an everlasting judgment upon those who refuse to trust in God and follow His ways. Such judgment can, of course, be viewed as manifesting love to those who will not face such judgment, for they will be freed from having to live with unrighteous people. However, it is quite clear in the Bible that divine judgment is not just for the benefit of those not judged; it is the delivering of a just punishment on those who deserve it.
You say, “an all-loving God is nowhere to be seen” in the Old Testament. Now, if “all-loving” is interpreted as incompatible with divine judgment, then “an all-loving God is nowhere to be seen” in either of the Testaments.
However, if your contention is that nowhere in the Old Testament do we find a God of love, that is not true. A lot is said about God’s love in the Old Testament (as well as the New). The Old Testament (and Jesus) do, of course, also say quite a bit about divine judgment against human wickedness, but they also speak quite a bit about the love and mercy of God and of his desire eventually to “bless the nations” (Gen. 18:18; 22:18; 26:4). Although God does bring judgment upon those who do evil. Both the Old and New Testaments affirm that God does not desire to bring irrevocable judgment on anyone even though he will do so.
2 Peter 3:9. “The Lord … is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Jesus repeatedly warns people of final judgment if they do not turn to and follow God. There are many parables of Jesus that address the topic of final judgment and in Matthew 10:27-28 Jesus says,
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. God].
Jesus, in his first coming, came to bring life and hope, but he will come again. At that time he will come as both judge and deliverer. Thus, Jesus says,
Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Divine judgement reflects the holiness of God, God’s opposition to all that is evil. (“Holy” means set apart, and a key element in being set apart is separation from all that is evil.) Throughout the Bible, to be confronted, even partially, with God’s holiness evokes terror in the human(s) so confronted. The reason is that, in the presence of God and his holiness (or even in the presence of holy angels), one is made acutely aware of one’s own unholiness (see Isaiah 6:1-7; Luke 2:8-10)
Perhaps the most important statement about the character of God is what God tells Moses in relation to Moses asking God to be able to see his (God’s) glory. Moses wants to see/know God directly, and God allows Moses to get a glimpse of his glory (from the back side as it were), but he tells Moses, ““you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live” (Exodus 33:20)
The Bible clearly teaches that God is not a physical being and hence he does not literally have either a back side nor a face, but the point is that anything that is unholy cannot endure in the direct presence of the holy God. To be unholy and be in the direct and full presence of God would entail destruction of the unholy person. This idea is also expressed when God is said to be “a consuming fire” (Deut. 4:24; Hebrews 12:29) Hence, “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom” (Psalm 111:10; Proverbs 9:10).]
However, in addition to letting Moses have this visual experience of his (God’s) glory, God gives Moses a verbal revelation of himself.
Exodus 34:6-7 The Lord passed before him [Moses] and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation.”
God reveals himself as a God of love and compassion, “forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin” (when there is genuine repentance), but also as a God of justice (He will “by no means clear the guilty.”) [On another occasion I could, if you like, address the matter of judgment extending “to the third and fourth generation.”]
An interesting place where God’s statement to Moses reappears is on the lips of Jonah.
Jonah has been called by God to preach to the people of Ninevah declaring to them that in forty days God will destroy Ninevah for its wickedness. Jonah had tried to avoid doing this by earlier fleeing by boat in the opposite direction. God, however, brought a violent storm. Jonah is thrown overboard but is miraculously swallowed by a great fish and then is spat out on the shore. Jonah then does go to Ninevah and preaches the message of divine judgment.
The Ninevites, however, exhibit genuine repentance (beginning with the king), and God forgives them, relenting from the judgment that he (God) would have brought against them.
Jonah is furious about this, and says to God,
“O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster. 3 Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live.” Jonah 4:2-3
This description of God’s character is something with which Jesus (and the NT writers) are in full agreement. If you are familiar with the popular Christian hymn, “Amazing Grace,” you may notice that at one point there is the pair of lines “T’was [It was] grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved.” The song writer recognizes that it was God’s grace that led him to fear God’s judgment upon himself, (the song writer) but it was also in God’s grace that God offers a path of forgiveness and restoration through Christ’s taking our sins upon himself and bearing the death that we deserved—“and grace my fears relieved.”
In your first sentence you say that Christians claim that God “is all-loving and just.” “Just” should clue you in to the fact that God’s goodness is not simply love; it includes his commitment to justice.
As for the language of “hate,” the Bible does indeed speak of God hating what is evil (e.g. Deut. 12:31; Psalm 5:4-6; 11:4-5; 45:6-7; Prov. 6:16-19; Isaiah 1:14; 61:8; Amos 5:21; Zech. 8:17, and it enjoins us to hate what is evil (Psalm 97:10; Amos 5:15; Rom. 12:9).
This does raise the question, how can it be said that God loves his enemies while the Bible also describes God as hating the wicked and what is evil?
Part of the problem here is that in human beings it is rare for love and hate to exist simultaneously toward the same person. Perhaps the closest one comes to this is the love that a parent can have towards a son or daughter who has become quite evil. Christians sometimes speak of hating the action but loving the person. However, generally speaking, actions reveal character. Evil actions reveal evil character, and, if the parent is honest, he/she should hate what their child has become. The parent may irrationally believe that the child (perhaps now an adult) is really good at their core despite all the actions to the contrary. However, if they are rational they should genuinely hate what the child has become (not just done). But, even so, the love for the child typically has not died. The result is that their feelings toward the child/adult involves both love and hate. However, in humans the emotions of hate and love are, at an experiential level, virtually incompatible. Thus, the parent will typically either flip-flop between love and hate or will spurn any feeling of genuine hate towards the child.
However, there is good reason to believe that God does not experience emotions in the same way we do. Our emotions are tied into our psycho-physical makeup; whereas God in his eternal being is not physically and psychologically wired as we are. Also, while emotions for us are experienced in a linear sequence, God transcends time; hence, emotions don’t come sequentially. Also, God relates simultaneously with everyone. Hence, God hates (or loves) this or that action or person while simultaneously loving (or hating) a vast number of other actions or persons. Consequently, we should not assume (from our experience) that God cannot both “hate” and “love” the same person (or community of people) at the same time.
This does not mean that statements about God loving one thing or hating something is vacuous in meaning. We can be quite certain that, at minimum, God “hating” what is wicked indicates strong divine disapproval. And we can be quite certain that, at minimum, God “loving” what is good indicates strong divine approval and God “loving” a person reflects God’s desiring that person’s welfare. The verses cited above from 2 Peter and Ezekiel reflect the love of God even for the wicked (who will face divine judgment if they do not repent and turn to God). Likewise, we see this in God forgiving the Ninevites. Also, it should be noted that Paul writes, “God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).”
It should also be added here that, although we are enjoined to hate what is evil; human hatred of evil typically is devoid of any love for the person. Thus, James writes, “the anger of man does not produce the righteousness that God requires (James 1:20). Leviticus 19:17 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him.” And Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matt. 5:43-45).
Notice Jesus is telling his followers that if we love our enemies, we will be like our heavenly Father. Again, we tend to think that if God hates what is evil and will bring judgment against evil doers (God’s enemies) then God does not love them. But, as noted above, both the Old and New Testaments agree in affirming God’s love even for the wicked. To desire their salvation and to extend forgiveness to them is an expression of God’s love for them
Finally, we typically are not called upon by God to bring God’s judgement against those who do what is evil. Indeed, Jesus commands his followers, “turn the other cheek” (Matt 5:39; Luke 6:29), and “judge not, that you be not judged” (Matt 7:1) (cf. Luke 6:37). But this does not mean that justice is will be ignored; that is the responsibility of courts of law and is ultimately something God will do. “‘Vengeance is mine’ says the Lord” (Deut 32:35) This verse is also, cited by Paul and is cited in Hebrews.
Romans 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Hebrews 10:30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.”
Both the Old and New Testaments are clear in affirming both God’s love for all people and God’s radical opposition to all that is evil. Accordingly, Jesus wept over Jerusalem, over those who are rejecting him and his message, knowing that judgement will come upon Jerusalem at the hand of the Romans.
Luke 19:41-44 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
In summary then, in the theology of both the Old and New Testaments God is wholly good, a goodness which includes both his love for humankind and his opposition to, and judgment against, all that is evil. The latter is also a reflection of God’s commitment to justice.
The depth of both God’s love and his commitment to justice is seen in the cross. Justice entailed death for humankind, and hence God could not simply forgive us without justice being violated. But because Jesus was fully human—and without sin—his death on the cross was a death being borne within humanity, an innocent person bearing death in place of the guilty.
However, although a sinless human might be able to die for another human, no one human could die for the sins of all humankind. This is why justice also required that Jesus not just be fully human,but also fully divine. Jesus was the Word of God at creation, and humankind sprang from the Triune God’s work of creation. Being the one from whom all humanity originally sprang, Jesus was one who could die for the sins of all humankind.
Matt 20:28 [Jesus speaking] “[T]he Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (cf. Mark 10:45).
This was prophesied in Isaiah 53. (It was written long before the time of Christ. We know this because it is in the Qumran Isaiah scroll, written long before Jesus was born.)
Peter Payne
www.crediblechristianity.org
Addendum on two unusual uses of “hate”
There are at least two places in the Bible where “hate” is used in a nonstandard way.
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Malachi 1:2-3 “… Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
In the Luke passage Jesus is not saying that his disciples should literally hate their parents and family members. This is evident in three ways.
First, the hate extends to “even his own life.” In context it is clear that Jesus is not saying that his disciples should hate their own lives (perhaps wishing they were dead); rather ,“hate” is designed to underscore that the disciples need to be willing to die for their allegiance to Jesus. They are to “hate” their own lives in the sense that they are to count their lives as having of no value if the desire for self-preservation impedes their allegiance to Jesus and his message.
Second, it is clear that Jesus does not intend “hate” literally because Jesus elsewhere (Matt 15:1-9) criticized the pharisees for failing to follow the command, “Honor your father and mother,” (Exod 20:12; Deut 5:16) underscored by the further command, “Anyone who curses his father and mother must be put to death” (Exod 21:17; Lev 20:9). Some of the pharisees had declared money or possessions as “dedicated to God.” They then told their parents that they were unable to help them because what they had was “dedicated to God” even though they themselves still had use of it until their deaths. Hence Jesus says to them, “Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your traditions” (Mt 15:6).
Third, Matthew 10:37 underscores the idea that love for Jesus has to be more important than even love for one’s parents. “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. This fits with the first reason given above.
As for the second text (from Malachi) nearly all commentators agree that the intent of “hated” is not a literal hate for Esau. Nothing in the story of Esau and Jacob in Genesis suggests that God hated Esau. Furthermore, when one looks at what is said about each of their lives, Jacob’s actions appear worse than those of his brother. Nowhere in the Bible is it said that God hates someone who has done nothing wrong (or no worse than others whom God does not hate). Some commentators suggest that “hate” is intended as hyperbole. They suggest that “hate” here reflects not more than “not favored.”
(Paul cites the Malachi statement in Romans 9:13 when he is talking about the mystery of election, God choosing some individuals for his blessing (or salvation) and not others. (On a different occasion I could discuss with you the doctrine of election.) Paul mentions how, even before the twins, Esau and Jacob, were born, God had chosen Jacob to be the one through whom would come the nation of Israel (God’s chosen people). [Paul does not address the question as to whether “hated” is intended literally.])
A second suggestion is that “hated” and “loved” refers not just to Esau and Jacob, the individuals, but to the lineages that would come from them, Edom and Israel. Along this line, it needs to be remembered that Edom’s history became one of regular hostility towards Israel. Further, the OT frequently speaks of God hating those who hate Israel. It also should be noted that, in ancient Jewish thought, one’s future children, grandchildren, etc. are within the ancestor. Finally, that “Esau I hated” and “Jacob I loved” refer that refer to their respective lineages is supported by the last part of Malachi 1:3, “I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” “His hill country” and “his heritage” refer Edom, not to Esau himself.
Hence, Malachi 1:3 does not tell us that God may arbitrarily hate some people and arbitrarily love others. When the Bible speaks of God’s “hatred” towards something or someone, it is quite consistently against what is evil.